24fandomcom-20200223-history
Talk:Jean Smart
Fans of "24" Since this helpful section where it mentioned how Smart and other future cast members of the show as well as other famous celebs were fans of 24 was recently removed, where could else could we list this helpful information without since it's not welcome on this page without being a case of edit warring or debatable at best?--Gunman6 (talk) 09:25, July 29, 2014 (UTC) :24 is obviously a popular show and so has a lot of fans, and a huge number celebrities of varying degrees of fame have expressed positivity about the show in differing ways and circumstances. I don't know what the list that you put on this page was based on (only the Obama one was sourced, as a second hand story from Jon Cassar about Carlos Bernard once meeting him). Perhaps a couple of the extremely notable people (say the presidents Obama and Clinton) could, with a source added, go under a "reception" section of the main 24 (TV series). But a huge list of major and minor celebrities who have once said "I love the show" while being interviewed alongside Kiefer or whatever, would not be helpful on any page--Acer4666 (talk) 12:09, July 29, 2014 (UTC) ::It's all in the 24: Behind the Scenes book by Rodney Charters and Jon Cassar. It would also just be informative to anyone who wonders about the show's appeal without being too against the NPOV policy. It was listed here because this actress was one of many who was a fan prior to getting a role on the show.--Gunman6 (talk) 19:40, July 29, 2014 (UTC) :::Oh OK, if the info is from that book then the best place to put it is on the article for the book--Acer4666 (talk) 20:28, July 29, 2014 (UTC) ::::The history for this page isn't loading; is there any other way I can copy the previous existing text and put it there?--Gunman6 (talk) 23:19, July 30, 2014 (UTC) --Acer4666 (talk) 23:21, July 30, 2014 (UTC) :::::Perhaps a section can be added to the 24 article about the show's reception (similar to the one in Wikipedia where it talks about ratings and overall impact?), and such a paragraph can be incorporated into that section to show the show's appeal. Thief12 (talk) 01:29, July 31, 2014 (UTC) ::::::I considered it but once again figured that it would be slightly against the NPOV unless you guys are going to make an exception and show critical ratings on the show.--Gunman6 (talk) 03:40, July 31, 2014 (UTC) :::::::Alright, I thought we were squared away by mentioning the other fans on the BTS book notes section when it was saying "Since then..." and so forth. If not, then we might as well add the critical reception area and put the fans of the show in one of the sections there.--Gunman6 (talk) 17:18, August 10, 2015 (UTC) ::::::There needs to be some criteria for notability. I can get behind a mention of US Presidents who have specifically said that they are fans, but assing the fact that an obscure B-movie director has "liked" the 24 facebook page is pretty ridiculous--Acer4666 (talk) 17:28, August 10, 2015 (UTC) :::::::Again, nothing has to be subjective and no one will ever agree on what is or isn't notable. I talked to the filmmaker himself and he would often talk about the show but he is not obscure unless you're not a movie buff. If we're listing facts, it flat out shouldn't matter given that there's a huge number of them and they were mentioned from the get-go.--Gunman6 (talk) 17:32, August 10, 2015 (UTC) ::::OK then, to avoid subjectivity we shouldn't list anyone then. If it's going to get down to listing whether the director of "Piranhaconda" is a fan or not, we shouldn't list any of the "celebrity" fans. It's far too broad to list these people--Acer4666 (talk) 17:35, August 10, 2015 (UTC) :::::All of the acting celebrities on here are listed in either the book or claimed interviews so we're fine on that section. The so-called "unknown" filmmaker is rather infamous so he makes the cut no problem; William Friedkin has notable films under his belt so he makes the cut and the last one once again is a Commander in Chief. It's not a problem like you're making it out to be, it just needs to be listed somewhere.--Gunman6 (talk) 17:47, August 10, 2015 (UTC) ::No no, we're only listing what has been mentioned in the book. The mention of Obama can go on the Obama article in the BGIN. We're not having a list of other so-called "celebrity" fans because the scope is far too large. 24 is a mainstream popular show so of course it has a lot of fans. A list of them is not practical or relevant.--Acer4666 (talk) 17:54, August 10, 2015 (UTC) :::By this logic, we're essentially saying that any list isn't relevant because of whatever huge scope. These are the only confirmed people so far and we don't have any other articles which only mention stuff sourced from books so this shouldn't be an exception. I didn't say make a list page either, just list them on the main 24 page along with critical acclaim and/or awards like others suggested above.--Gunman6 (talk) 18:07, August 10, 2015 (UTC) ::What other lists are not relevant due to their huge scope? ::The problem with this is that what constitutes a notable "celebrity" is completely subjective. I would say that Jim Wynorski is definitively not a notable celebrity...you clearly disagree. We can't list every fan of the show, and as who qualifies as a "celebrity" is a contentious and subjective issue, we should avoid this kind of arbitrary inclusion criteria--Acer4666 (talk) 18:13, August 10, 2015 (UTC) :::Every other list we have has a huge scope and again this is being listed on the main 24 TV show description page not on a list. Jim Wynorski is well-known with 100 and sure to be more film credits (as well as various documentaries about him and Roger Corman) and you happen to not know who he is but that doesn't make him non-notable. It is only three people (Jim, Friedkin, Obama), in addition to the cast members and book notes, and that's hardly "every fan of the show." This isn't just some random newcomer who randomly noted "Hey, I like 24" and in which case you could axe them because they are not yet a notable person. ::No, other lists we have have specific inclusion criteria for this reason. Any actual examples? ::It's not just 3 people, though. I spent about 10 minutes seeing if I could find others, and have these television personalities saying they're fans, and I could also add all of the actors from the show who say they are fans, all of who are arguably more well known than this film director you once talked to. The thing is: it's subjective who is "well known" enough to be listed, so we can't have a non-subjective inclusion criteria. Unlike other lists on the wiki, which all have non-subjective inclusion criteria.--Acer4666 (talk) 20:14, August 10, 2015 (UTC) :::I simply said that you could label any list as having a huge scope since there are numerous people on it period (regardless of the criteria for adding whoever) and you could make an argument about how important they are or are not to the plot. But all the Unnamed characters lists are based on subjectivity otherwise we'd have a far more complete list for each of them. :::For starters, no one else besides you made it an issue that someone be well-known and, again, there's nothing to stop those three people from begin added either but there's nothing wrong with that as they're talk show hosts of high-rated shows so they meet that criteria. There wasn't even any subjectivity involved from the get-go until you randomly decided "How about I make this harder than it actually is by seeing who I can not list." :::Again, I just mentioned why this man is well-known and you keep saying "No one knows who he is." No sir, you don't know who he is and if he's been discussed often times in pop culture let alone by other well-known filmmakers, he meets that well-known criteria. None of these people meet the "Unknown" status (let alone the "newcomer" trait that would cause subjectivity) as of now so again there's no problem to be had especially if it's on one section of the 24 page.--Gunman6 (talk) 22:53, August 10, 2015 (UTC) ::At no point did I say "No one knows who he is". ::I spent just 10 minutes proving I could find other people who list themselves as fans of the show; given more time I could find countless others. This is to prove that this list is impractical and could get arbitrarily large. ::The unnamed character lists have strict criteria specifically to stop any old characters being listed on there. The subjectiveness of the criteria has been discussed and is as objective as we can possibly make it to keep the lists practical. Additionally, it is not an example of what you claim - there are a finite number of people on the show who are credited or speak, so it has a finite scope. There is no limit on the number of self professed fans of the show of varying notability, so the scope is too large. ::You're suggesting having completely subjective criteria for this proposed list. Have it on your userspace by all means; but that's not how we do things on the mainspace articles.--Acer4666 (talk) 23:07, August 10, 2015 (UTC) :::That's what you're implying when you're saying "arguably better known". Again, I didn't say I wanted to make this a list, only one section on a page and just because there's no limit to it doesn't mean it's impractical. "Old characters" doesn't make sense. I am saying there are countless other characters that should be listed but because of various rules, we have rather incomplete lists as of now. :::It was fine where it was on the other page until you randomly decided: "I don't want it on there." No one else had an issue with it on the BTS page and you shouldn't either because it is updating a fact in the book. We update anything whether it's noting how something has changed since such-and-such last DVD commentary or note what the characters went on to do in later episodes that contradict earlier statements. :::Nothing subjective about it either suggested nor implied as again, these people are well-documented and were telling this in interviews, not random people on the internet who may or may not be celebrities. --Gunman6 (talk) 23:22, August 10, 2015 (UTC) ::What you put about William Friedkin and that other guy wasn't updating a fact in the book, as they have nothing to do with the book and aren't mentioned in it. I didn't just randomly decide, I have clearly laid out my reasons for removing it above. Sorry you have taken this so personally, but it unfortunately your proposed list (/section) would be too subjective--Acer4666 (talk) 10:43, August 11, 2015 (UTC) :::Who said I took it personally? I merely said it wouldn't be subjective unless one wants to be nitpicky and claim that it's irrelevant because they fear the same factors don't apply. Yes, this is updating a fact in the book because these are well-known filmmakers and politicians and there are filmmakers mentioned in the book like the late Harold Ramis and Bill Clinton. --Gunman6 (talk) 18:37, August 11, 2015 (UTC) ::Who is and isn't famous is subjective though. There's really little else to say; anyone can clearly see that how famous someone is is subjective. The fact we've had this huge ridiculous debate over how famous Jim Wynorski is kinda proves that.--Acer4666 (talk) 18:45, August 11, 2015 (UTC)